For those who did the CQB training you will notice what they could improve. I though it was interesting to compare to what we learned
In any case, they eventually get it right in a military sort of way
Fallujah CQB
Notice what they can improve...not much. Nothing looks as tacticool as it does on TV or when you're doing CST. They got the job done, but I'm not seeing what you're getting at, should they have stacked up five seconds, or posted at certain points on the roof?
This is what it looks like in real life.
I saw this video a few days ago and was thinking that yeah, they aren't doing everything textbook classroom style, but....
Need to keep in mind that top-down entry is a dangerous method for clearing buildings as:
- you really need to flood the building hardcore
- you will have a tough time retreating if need be
- pulling casualties out is very difficult as you're working against gravity
The pro's are that you have momentum, can surprise/confuse those inside, etc..
Its a difficult job clearing buildings and the squad needs to decide which method to use in a relatively short period of time.
I think they did a decent job considering they are putting their lives at risk (you can even sense it on their expressions).
Just my two cents - I'm not in the military and have never been in that type of situation, I'm just a guy that enjoys reading / learning about military tactics
I find this video quite interesting for analysis, Wraith.
If we compare to what we have learned, they could have easily increased their field of vision and personal safety by stepping one arm's length from the walls. It is an easy trick than increases greatly how much you can see without exposing yourself as much.
The second point is the amount of firepower they could bring to bear when they are checking corners. Closer contact to one another, a high position and low position easily double the volume of fire for the progression.
Are they good at what they do? Not particularly, I find they engage unnecessarily their personal safety to let the guys go. In the end they do what trained people do without putting themselves further at risk, they level the house.
We can't for sure know all the tactical elements of the situation, but it's interesting nevertheless to put this in parallel with what we have seen.
What you have seen is fake pretend game play not real need to get the job done I could die situations...there is no comparison...second how are the U.S. Marines not trained people???? The whole point is to not have to level a building in the first place...Wraith I agree with you I think they did good...got the job done and everyone left alive and with all the body parts they brought with them for this fight...Also before any "oh he is the Navy he wouldn't know" talk starts..Ship are strictly CQB I spent 8 months outside Iraq (Northern Arabic Gulf) boarding ships...
Brandon's getting mad ^^
It's clear that unless having real firefight experience and training, our point of view is limited to an Airsoft/Milsim point of view. From an Airsoft point of view, they could have done better. From a real firefight point of view, I can't see what they did wrong personally, those peeps were pretty bunkered down, seemed hard to have any clear shot without risking his own head.
gents, anyone isn't aware that airsoft is about playing?
Not really sure why everything anyone would do in any case is spotless and to be reproduced, be it enlisted dudes or not.
I witnessed a few cases where people were not doing the right thing, supposedly highly trained people. People friendly firing each other and all kind of silly crap. Not sure what's all the fuss. Post action analysis has always been in my book an incredibly valuable tool.
The vid is interesting because there are few easy things that we saw they could have used to improve their safety and the efficiency of their action.
This contrast between what we saw and what they did is very interesting in itself. I don't think that one has to disqualify the other.
I thought they got the job done in the first part - maybe it could have been done better, but they had to physically clear the house room by room before they could level it (i.e. need to make sure there are no civilians...)
Agree with tifast fully that post action analysis is an incredibly valuable tool - whether you're in the military, banking or football - this type of discussion is what helps everyone improve - as long as everyone posting keeps it friendly.
Tifast, did you have to do mandatory service in your home country?
I can't remember if we talked about it or not?
I ask because I think there is a difference in outlook for military/ex-military than there is for people that are simply exposed to it through media, and in my case, airsoft.
I find it very difficult sometimes to reconcile the conflicting sides of my enjoyment of "military entertainment" like video games, movies, airsoft, and my opinion of the real military. I hold a very strong belief that ALL life is sacred, and that conflicting views and ideals should be resolved peacefully and respectfully. When I say military, I mean it as a compete entity, not as an individual. I dislike the Japanese Education system but I still think there are great teachers and great people in that system.
I completely understand that people join the military for many reasons, and that they either have a very strong belief in the system from the start, or have one trained into them. As such, I can appreciate why they feel so strongly about their beliefs. I don't agree with them, but I also don't disagree with them for making the choices they make.
My first few games of airsoft I remember thinking, "Wow. War must be absolutely terrifying. Even someone really trained in this could have their life ended so quickly."
I watch a video like the one posted, and I feel absolutely no right to comment on their performance. They are facing a threat to their life that I have absolutely no way of understanding beyond my experience in a game. A GAME. Theirs is not a game at all. Lessons that I have learned from MAGPUL videos or tactical training only translate to airsoft for me. My greatest fear is a 6mm bb. How could I understand it any more than that? I have never been shot at and I have always lived in very peaceful parts of the world with no real conflict.
I can understand why someone would defend the actions of these soldiers, especially someone that has been trained and exposed to this kind of threat (like wraith and El Brandon). I personally can't say a thing about it, cause I really don't understand it. In my mind they shouldn't be there in the first place, but that's probably best for another thread
I fully agree that post operations review is a very valuable learning tool in any field...I just don't feel qualified to do the review in this case, just as I wouldn't be able to do so in a post corporate merger review. It's not my field.
And how about the guy with the camera...commitment!
GingaNinja, there is no reconciliation between military stuff and airsoft. Airsoft, in my view, has minimum resemblance to anything military. Not sure why anyone would live in this illusion. Long hikes, coordinated movements rather than piece optimization is more like it. I'm ok with it and find it fun.
This vid shows contrast between what the instructor told us and what they are doing. I thought this instructor had a few good tricks up his sleeves, not sure why it has to be dismissed right away.
(09-05-2010 09:43 PM)GingaNinga Wrote: [ -> ]My first few games of airsoft I remember thinking, "Wow. War must be absolutely terrifying. Even someone really trained in this could have their life ended so quickly."
Going a little aside of subject, but it's funny as I thought the exact same thing during my first game.
Then I remembered all those stories my father told me when he spent few months in Lebanon during the civil war, left in a spot for sometimes over a day with just an AK, few bags of ammo, some food, and having to stop anyone of coming through. Well, after Airsoft, I started having a slight glimpse as of why he's still having nightmares of people cutting his throat 30 years later...
This is why I don't feel comfortable criticizing the actions of anyone in a firefight, in a life and death situation, everyone reacts differently, very differently. Some reactions are less efficient than others, but ultimately, the goal is survival, and if you're still alive, you did right in the end.
Sorry for going off subject Ycare, but I thought it demonstrated an importatant point about airsoft vs. real world.
"This is why I don't feel comfortable criticizing the actions of anyone in a firefight, in a life and death situation, everyone reacts differently, very differently. Some reactions are less efficient than others, but ultimately, the goal is survival, and if you're still alive, you did right in the end."
I agree!
Well for starters, I would imagine that a factor of fear pays a huge part in a real life CQB situation, a factor that we airsofters could not even comprehend, so that pretty much highlights the pointlessness of this comparison. Secondly, the video shows the result of these real life actions and you can quite easily see dead Iraqis amongst the rubble at the end. Now you may not agree with me and you may have your own reasons to justify posting this on a site about "playing war games" but seriously lets use some other examples and show a little respect at least by not posting this kind of thing on here.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/ is a great site to talk about real military tactics. They even have an airsoft and reenactment section for talking about things like this. Most likely, and rightly, you would be shot down by a pro for comparing a video like this to an airsoft game though.
Anyway, my point is, this kind of material and this website shouldn't be mixed. Especially when I get a warning for typing C*CK in another thread.
Well respect is there.
I put myself in Wraith or Brandon's shoes yesterday evening, trying to understand their view point. I like these guys and if they get offended let's close the topic.
I have no issue with that.
Being military myself and have trained soldiers in this type of combat makes me want to bring up a point. There is nothing wrong with using airsoft as a training tool for "tactical maneuvers". In the Army we use blanks and laser gear that doesn't work half of the time, but we still get it right. The realism airsoft can provide is solely linked to how serious the individuals participating give it. If I want to train using airsoft then I would treat each bb as a live round and try to avoid being shot at all cost doing maneuvers and tactics accordingly along with getting feed back as to what I have done wrong in each scenario. Some individuals like myself love playing airsoft for the simple fact that I dont get enough "tactical" in my life and job field. which in turn makes me not want to be the one out in the sand not knowing what to do or how to advise others because of my lack of training. So IMO and only my opinion, I think that bringing information and videos like above to be discussed is not an issue in an airsoft community. Because maybe there is a small community inside this one that would like to talk about such things. Remember airsoft is as real "sim" as you want it to be, and not every unit in any military do "tactical" the same.
In my conclusion, lets just all hug and shoot something!
And remember, dont ever take advice from someone who has never been in combat or trained for combat(If you want to "mil sim" it the right way). Theoretical combat is fine for some people but we are TKOverkill!! Lets get it right and use the wonderful resources and knowledge of our fellow members in the military/airsoft community.