TKOverKill

The last time I played public games, I heard some zombie calls. Well... Sometimes people DO became zombie unintentionally, and I admit that I probably had become zombie at some point during any game I attended. The reason is simple, because people didn't feel the hit. Everybody's wearing helmet, plate carrier, BDUs + plus all thick clothing will sometime make 1 joule of energy feels like nothing, and sometimes during the heat of battle, you barely can even notice anything... I do my best to not become a zombie all the time, but sometimes during the heat of battle I can't feel anything when I got shot on my CIRAS or any body parts thanks to the thick armor and loose BDU.(except headshot).

The point is... I just want to ask all seniors here about how to not become a Zombie, and to prevent any zombie accident in further game

cheers

With this topic I remember the reminder the manager of IBF tells the crowd every public game. There will surely be times that the player did not feel the hit. In those cases, shoot them again until they feel it.

There's really no other way except to be conscious of the things happening. And if you at the very least think you're hit, call it.

My philosophy is if I feel anything, ANYTHING, I immediately call it. I don't think it's fair to the others playing, on your team or the other team, to take a couple seconds to decide if it was a real hit, a ricochet, friendly fire, the hand of god, or whatever. If I feel anything hit me, I call it straight away. If I'm in a situation where I figure the person probably hit me, even if I didn't feel anything, I'll call the hit. For example, if you surprise yourself and an opponent by coming around a corner unexpectedly and you both fire point blank, sometimes you don't feel anything. Maybe because of the adrenalin, maybe because of your gear, maybe because the person just miraculously missed, but I still call it. If I think you probably should have hit me given the situation, distance, etc, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it.

For me, I'd rather go out of a game than justify staying in and have people calling me a zombie. As foreigners also I think it's easy for Japanese players who don't know our decidedly honorable and fair group to label us as cheats, so I think it's doubly important to be quick to call hits at public games. Sportsmanship comes into play here too. If you don't call something, then later think you probably should have, go talk to the person who shot (at) you and see what they think. An explanation and/or apology can help the shooter see the other side of the story... unless you're explaining and apologizing after every game.

I guess I'm echoing Hazard, but in summation, if you think you felt anything, call it. If you didn't feel anything, but think you probably got hit, call it.

I'm with all you guys here and commend ace5kills on raising this topic. As with him I've probably been guilty of being an "accidental zombie". For those who've played with me for a long time will know that if I think I've been hit, even if I've not felt anything but come into a situation where it's impossible to miss I walk out. But I'm sure there's been situations that I didn't even know I was shot at that I continued playing (as such the "accidental zombie").

I'd like to believe we really have very few cheaters in TKO over the years (sorry, I cannot say none). And we have people who will call their hits. As you all have raised above, it's the variation of "feel" that each individual has that is in question. Some would want to have a definite feel before calling themselves out, others would say "nah it's impossible for him to miss me at that range even though I didn't feel anything" and call themselves out.

I want to say that the amount that people wear does worry me. There's a balance of realistic looks vs fun. The more I wear the more I have to be conscious; as such most ppl would notice that I have a reasonably light loadout (like Crye's Range Vest), or in the last indoor, I didnt' even bother wearing a vest.

Food for thought....

I think it's important to pay as much attention to sound as you do to pain, especially for those of you mil-sim guys with the super heavy realistic loadouts. Even something like a belt buckle can manage to catch a BB.

I probably differ from most other players in that I'd actually prefer everyone give the benefit of the doubt to the shot NOT being a hit. I've had a lot of situations where I definitely should have killed someone, but didn't. Whether it's something like shooting at point blank and either missing or having your hi-cap magazine screw up, or the (in retrospect) fabulously hilarious case of me dropping a grenade through a window, literally at someone's feet, and then having not even one of several hundred BBs hitting them, it's a lot easier to miss than most people seem to want to admit. Combine with that the fact that under the right conditions (lighting, distance, and awareness) it can be almost comically easy to dodge shots (look ma, I'm Keanu Reeves!) and you've got a recipe for supposed zombies when in fact nobody actually had a BB connect with them.

As Hazard pointed out, if you think you shot someone and they didn't call it, I say the best solution is to shoot them until they do. Of course this philosophy can be easily abused, but what in Airsoft or other honor games can't? I think it's best to err on the side of missing rather than the other way around. From a purely utilitarian point of view, more people in the game for longer means more fun for everyone. These aren't actual bullets we're shooting at each other, they're tiny little plastic BBs that can be carried astray by even a light gust of wind, rendered ghostly by plate carriers, or even never leave the barrel due to a technical malfunction. Maybe I really do suck far more than the average player, but I know for a fact that I've had loads of times where I was sure, positive even, that I'd hit someone, but after considering all the myriad factors at play realized it was more likely that something along the line interfered rather than that person simply being dishonest.

The whole "call it even if you didn't feel it" thing seems inefficient and boring to me. That said, I understand that it's the way most of the group here plays, so I try my best to live by that rule too.

(02-04-2010 03:13 PM)Aouwra Wrote: [ -> ]I probably differ from most other players in that I'd actually prefer everyone give the benefit of the doubt to the shot NOT being a hit. I've had a lot of situations where I definitely should have killed someone, but didn't. Whether it's something like shooting at point blank and either missing or having your hi-cap magazine screw up, or the (in retrospect) fabulously hilarious case of me dropping a grenade through a window, literally at someone's feet, and then having not even one of several hundred BBs hitting them, it's a lot easier to miss than most people seem to want to admit. Combine with that the fact that under the right conditions (lighting, distance, and awareness) it can be almost comically easy to dodge shots (look ma, I'm Keanu Reeves!) and you've got a recipe for supposed zombies when in fact nobody actually had a BB connect with them.

I'd like to highlight this because of an experience we had in a public game that still lingers in my mind.

We were at a public game at SEALS and all seemed to be normal, until after the game day ended the manager came to me (I booked the participants) and told me to tell my teammates that some players accused us of being zombies. Needless to say, instead of going home exchanging fun stories, we went home ranting. Haven't played in an outdoor public game since.

I believe many will agree that it is virtually impossible to avoid being called a zombie due to the lack of objective ways to prove or disprove it. So as Aouwra said, it would probably be more enjoyable for everyone to give the opposing team the benefit of the doubt.

(02-04-2010 03:13 PM)Aouwra Wrote: [ -> ]The whole "call it even if you didn't feel it" thing seems inefficient and boring to me. That said, I understand that it's the way most of the group here plays, so I try my best to live by that rule too.

This sentiment bothers me a lot (although I truly appreciate you respecting something you don't believe in). So here I am ready to try to convince you .

The thing is that even though it's inefficient or boring, to the other person shooting you is extremely frustrating. If everyone is laid back and relaxed don't care about hitting zombies, then that's fine...continue unloading the entire mag worth. Note that this contradicts TKO's goals of "spray 'n pray" initiative.

But probably for most people, there's a certain amount of tolerance before that breaks and for those people, it is frustrating that they've taken the time to be tactical only for the victim not to "die".

Yes people do miss but unless your weapon has terrible grouping, most of the time the zombie kills in question are close. Let me give you a couple of examples I've personally experience :-

1) Union outdoor 3 yrs ago, Jason & I were shooting at each other around the diameter of a mini-car. We circled 180 counter-clockwise unloading about 5-6 BBs and realised no way we could have missed each other even though neither of us felt it. We both walked out and laughed about it. Now both parties walked out with a positive feeling in their hearts/minds.

2) IBF 16 months ago, Hawk & I surprised each other and shot each other. We didn't feel hits but both of us walked out 'cos we couldn't miss at that close 15 foot range. Again we walked out laughing - what was funny was that he & I both ran out of BBs but just heard the "bang" but didn't feel anything. That made it even funnier...but neither of us walked out of that game thinking "Damn, I could have stayed alive and lasted longer".

3) In the most recent indoor game I was hiding in a dark room and saw & waited for the opponent to open the door to shoot him. He opened and I unloaded 2 shots. He didn't budge and shot me out. Admittedly at that point I was unhappy but hey, ces't la vie. I know he's not a cheater and would just categorise it as "accidental" zombie. However I did wish at that distance (again 10 feet) he would have given me the benefit of the doubt that I couldn't have missed even though he didn't feel anything. So I left the field feeling unhappy.

The point being, put yourself in the role of the shooter...not just whether you mind blasting the opponent or not; but take into consideration of the the shooter's feeling and frustration.

(02-04-2010 03:13 PM)Aouwra Wrote: [ -> ]fabulously hilarious case of me dropping a grenade through a window, literally at someone's feet, and then having not even one of several hundred BBs hitting them, it's a lot easier to miss than most people seem to want to admit.

That was me , I remember in BCU, saw the grenade like 1m away from me, me taking 5 seconds to realize "what the hell is that blue thing?" and then "hu ho", and among all the BBs that went out flying everywhere, nothing touched me although I was only wearing tee-shirt/pants .

But you know what? I was still relatively new to the whole Airsoft code at that point, in spite of the equipment I was wearing, and I should have walked out from there, because realistically speaking, I had to be hit for sure with a grenade landing at my feet.
But anyway, I remember you shooting me on my hand just like 1mn later, and I got welds on my knuckles for a week after, so I should have definitely walked out on that grenade, taught me well .

Yeah, that's definitely one of my favorite airsoft memories so far, Ycare. Gave me a lot of motivation to keep trying for a grenade kill until I finally managed one at the last game.

You make some very good points, Q, and I see where you're coming from on this. The whole "put yourself in the role of the shooter" thing seems to suggest that my point has been missed though. You hit the nail on the head in saying that if everyone is laid back and relaxed then it works, since that's basically all I was getting at. My assertion was that when both shooter and receiver are aligned, there's no harm done by playing this way since it's inevitable that the roles will be reversed, likely in a matter of minutes. The reason I don't play like that is because I know the rules of the game, the group, and what everyone's feelings are, though I feel like there's a good argument to be made the other way, in a hypothetical manner.

In our (well, my) ideal hypothetical situation, it doesn't seem like there's any significant downside to the "err on the side of missing." Again, this ideal situation includes people being laid back about this sort of thing and agreeing that it's more fun to keep shooting than it is to stop. Taking a more philosophical direction, this is indeed leaning a bit more towards the game aspect of the sport and less towards the mil-sim aspect. I say this because it seems to rely more on the physical event of the BB's impact and less on the "I know I should have gotten you" angle. But hey, I don't really have any significant existential qualms with pray and spray. I certainly don't want to see our games become paintball style matches where we hide behind giant neon inflatable air mattresses, but I also see now harm in launching a burst of 10 BBs instead of just one or two.

The whole thing does seem a bit kinder the way the rules are currently built though, especially when playing indoors. If the shots are coming from a few feet away, it definitely makes sense that you want people using controlled single shots instead of wild clip-emptying sprays. To be honest, I rather enjoy getting and displaying the bruises that come from that sort of thing, but one look at my face should be enough to tell people I'm a bit odd in that respect.

I think the "err on the side of missing" argument falls apart when the shooter and target are approaching things from different perspectives. It might work for a shot or two, but if at some point the target keeps using the "you should feel like you missed me because I'm not calling hit" while the shooter is feeling more and more convinced that he has hit his target than it will lead to more zombie complaints.

I agree that there are going to be times when a person doesn't know they have been hit, and don't call it. At a recent public game at CIMAX I was firing at a target. We were both behind wooden barriers, but I had elevation and could see his head when he was taking cover. I would pop out, fire a few rounds, and pop back behind cover. After 2 or 3 exchanges, I popped out and continued firing at his exposed head. As I popped back in, the Field Marshal looked at me and told me I was out. He said, "You're out, he hit your gun."

I thanked him, called hit, and walked out. I had no idea the guy had hit my gun! I don't even know how he got the shot off. I was worried though that because the Marshal had to call it that they might label me the "gaijin zombie."

A few rounds later I swapped to my gas handgun, and was very mobile. I snuck close to a target and popped off a few rounds at someone who had no idea I was behind a barrier. He reacted to both hits, looked around to see where they came from, and then ran to join his advancing team members. It was pretty hard to give him the I-must-have-missed benefit of the doubt.

I think that most of us do accept that we might sometimes miss, but if it happens time and time again, people inevitably get frustrated. I don't play with high caps, and usually have a maximum of 4 or 5 mags with 30 - 60 rounds per mag. I usually don't play full auto, even during full auto games. If I have to unload a full magazine
(or more) just to get someone to call a hit, when they should have called it when I hit them 60 rounds ago, that gets frustrating.

I think, as others have said, we all need to be conscious of impact, sound, etc. I would rather take a "when indoubt, your out" approach because it takes the focus off the other players. Meaning, if I don't call it, cause maybe it was a ricochet or a branch, etc, then the other player has to forgive me. They have to internally agree that maybe they missed me. If I call everything, then they will hopefully never be in a place to doubt my integrity...

Played on Friday indoors. I fired 2 tracer rounds to my left as I was getting ready to relocated to my right. 1 shot bounced of a curtain, off the floor, off the wall, and hit my team mate...and he called HIT. Oops. My bad

Sorry for the ramble...feeling very unable to communicate today

(05-04-2010 06:19 PM)dstole Wrote: [ -> ]I think the "err on the side of missing" argument falls apart when the shooter and target are approaching things from different perspectives. It might work for a shot or two, but if at some point the target keeps using the "you should feel like you missed me because I'm not calling hit" while the shooter is feeling more and more convinced that he has hit his target than it will lead to more zombie complaints.

I am pretty sure that this is something I have explicitly stated three or four times already? All my comments have been made on a hypothetical plane, with this very caveat thrown in repeatedly and a further explanation (or reassurance, perhaps) that I still play by the group rules and agree that they are justified and valid.

That said, I think your comment about shifting the onus is an interesting one, and a very persuasive argument against the points I was making earlier.

We have all had that feeling that we got someone and they dont go out, or see the BB bounce off their gun or body and see them continue on. I am sure I have been that person from time to time. There is nothing more frustrating than seeing BBs bounce off and for the person to ignore it and pretend it didnt happen, especially when they continue to sit in the same spot and shoot back at you. I personally put a few BBs into one guys dot-sight a few games ago while he poked his gun out, only to have him shoot me a few minutes later. Possibly he didnt think that the gun was counted as a hit, but it was an expensive mistake for him and a frustrating one for me.

I like that we all have the same idea that you respect the shot and the shooter not wait until they have the gun a foot from your back before you call it. I really enjoy playing with Dstole, Thunder Midget and Rooboy. Sometimes we might go out easy but at least it is always enjoyable and we have a laugh about it.

I do said that my opponents are doing Zombies when i play first time & ongoing couple of events....But it's my bad because i realizes later after several game events, it's my fault since i am firing my gun, sounding it so loud but there's no BB's coming out (i did not roll my high caps lever, check my mags or change it...i am not knowledgeable about my rifle & handguns that time, but now i am fine and always aware of it...so i think expect those people who say or if you heard those people whispering zombies, expect them they were Newbies...(that's my thought) and they get angry because instead they hit you, you hit them back or vise versa. I think when someone was hit he wont insist not to say Hit if they feel hurt... There are times that i was overkill, even i say Hit or raising my hand, it's still firing at me, i cannot complain thinking still my fault since i say HIT they might not heard it or understand, instead saying HITTO in Nihonngo, although these experience i've had most at Public games..
So i prefer to attend private games since you knew your fellas, as well you know whose newbies in the group...It's fun doing this sports..i've had memorable one at indoor game that my opponents found me at the corner at about half meter, he fires on me continuously ( i found my handgun was out so i cannot fires back ... luckily while he's still firing at me with that distance there's no bb's coming out on his rifle, and i said to him "You have no BB's", despite of that he keeps firing on me about a feet now (I had a chance to change my mags then) and i said "TAMA GA NAI YO" ...he test fires away and whisper "A HONTO DA ..(i have my hand gun now on his head .. instead he goes away consider my surrender fire. Everybody both team were laughing, fun stories he told his team of what crazyness he did all the time, although if he had a BB's that time i think i got the worst bruises i had at airsofting in my life with that distance, he gave no mercy..that's how excited someone, even if he is in full metal jacket gear and gadget you cannot judge if he's well thorough of the game, his rifle and guns..Zombie should not be a word of a game since it's just a Game though.. if one's is cheatin he or she cheatin of themselves..
when you gaming a lot you learn a lot..it's fun to be an airsofter when respect is around...I do enjoy using a real count now and my handgun as well... let's try to understand others although they may feel you upset of their judgement. Once if they wont say HIT, Hit them again and again..i swear no one will be patience not to say so if it is feel so hurt.
I even had some recochet although i did not say Hit but i just went out the field back to safe zone...and i am trying to practice to say outloud HITTOOOOOO !! instead of HIT to avoid overkill

Since people mentioned about hit on guns, I would like to know more about TKoverkill`s policy

does a hit on your gun count as an out? or since your gun is not part of your body, it`ok to continue? how about friendly fire? does a hit by friendly fire count as a hit?